A friend introduced me to an article written by a pastor defending the church’s right to say the pledge of allegiance to the flag in a church service. Below I have offered my own response to the arguments made in that letter. It is by no means exhaustive and much more can be said, but this is a start and I hope one that will encourage dialog between myself and others, both who agree and disagree. I would welcome the opportunity to flesh this out some more with others. May we all be sharpened because of it and grow in the image of Jesus Christ through it. If you would like to read the entire letter you can find it HERE. And thank you to my friend for sending it to me! I cherish your heart for Jesus!
I salute the flag that stands for the Republic, under God, with liberty and justice for all. I appreciate the emphasis that the Christian Founding Fathers gave us: freedom to worship God, freedom of assembly, freedom of speech, freedom of movement plus many other freedoms.
To be clear, pledging allegiance to anything goes beyond a mere “salute.” Allegiance means to give one’s “loyalty or commitment” to someone or something. A “salute” simply means “a gesture of respect, homage or polite recognition.” A salute does not imply ones abiding loyalty.
It is one of the great myths of our country to say that our founding fathers were “Christians,” at least in the way we think of Christians. The majority of the founding fathers were Deists, which meant they believed in a God who stood apart and outside of history, sort of like a great watchmaker who “wound” up the world and just let it go. This was not a God who was “Immanuel” (God with us) but was aloof and distant. Thomas Jefferson, for instance, took a pen and scissors to his Bible and cut out all the sections of the New Testament that spoke of miracles. Why? Because God does not intervene in human history in such ways.
Furthermore, we must question whether these freedoms:
freedom to worship God, freedom of assembly, freedom of speech, freedom of movement plus many other freedoms
Are essentially “Christian” freedoms. These are not freedoms promised us by God. While it is a blessing to be given the privilege to worship without persecution we must also admit that this means all religions are equally free to express themselves. This is good, but let us not fool ourselves into thinking that we are a “Christian” nation simply because we are allowed to worship. Israel was not a democracy in that it allowed freedom of worship. If you were part of the nation of Israel than Yahweh “would be your God and you will be God’s child.” If you did not like that than you had a choice to make along with Joshua’s clan: ”Choose this day whom you will serve. As for me and my household we shall serve the Lord.” Israel knew very well, through personal experience, that they belonged to a jealous God, one who did not like to share allegiances.
So these freedoms are not exactly “Christian.” They are democratic, yes, but not rights that are guaranteed anyone who decides to “pick up their cross” and follow Jesus. We shouldn’t confuse the two.
I believe that government is meant, according to St. Paul, (13) to oppose evil, punish the evildoer, insure the safety of its citizens, fight for the rights of others who are oppressed, secure justice or remedy injustice, secure peace and protect the innocent as much as possible.
The pastor here has taken some great liberties with Romans 13. The only thing in the litany above that is even partially hinted at by Paul is that the government will punish those who do wrong. A rather obvious fact in Paul’s day who is writing to Christians subject to persecution while living in Rome, the center of the empire.
And despite what governments are meant to do (and whether or not they carry it out well enough), Paul’s point is that all are subject to the sovereignty of God. In the end, ALL nations and kings will bow before the true Lord of heaven and earth. Paul’s point, as the end of the chapter shows, is to encourage the faithful to remain loyal to Christ, to “clothe yourselves with Christ” and in love for the end is near. The nation that persecutes you answers to God, whether they know it or not.
I accept, in this fallen world, that there will always be “war or rumors of war” until Jesus returns. But until that day comes, strength is the insurer of peace. As Martin Luther said, “Without armaments peace cannot be kept; wars are waged not only to repel injustice, but also to establish a firm peace.”
Again, the pastor is taking some liberties with the text. In neither Matthew 24 nor Mark 13 does it say there will “always” be wars and rumors of wars. In fact, just the opposite. Jesus says that this will occur but these are just “birth pangs” giving way to what will one day be the fulfillment of the Kingdom.
In any event there is absolutely NO insinuation that Christians will be part of any of this. Sure there may be wars and rumors of wars but our part (the Church) is to “remain alert” and to stay faithful to the one who transcends all of that – Jesus.
As for Martin Luther, well, he was wrong here (and elsewhere). This is what Walter Wink calls the “myth of redemptive violence.” Our culture is obsessed by it. We cannot imagine any other way to bring about peace and to stop injustice other than through war. This is a lie all of us have bought into, even the Church. However, it is not the story Jesus brings. Jesus, the Prince of Peace, accomplished a “firm” peace not through war or violence but by laying down his own life. The way of Jesus is not the way of the world. How much do we trust that? How much are we willing to give our allegiance to that? I confess, it is terrifying. Perhaps we might all pray, “Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief.”
I know that Jesus taught non-retaliation in the Sermon on the Mount, saying, “I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also” (Matt. 5:39) But He was referring to personal non-retaliation, not national defense.
Again, the pastor is taking liberties with the text (this seems to be a common theme). When people reduce Jesus’ words to nothing more than personal holiness they strip Jesus of his message of the Kingdom of God. Jesus is not talking solely about how we should behave in our personal relationships but is giving us a glimpse into what life looks like in the Kingdom of God. Yes, it may be an ideal to live into but nevertheless it is the Church’s place to shoulder this ideal and do all that we can by the grace of God to live up to it.
“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight—nothing he cares about more than his own safety –– is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.”
What is more ugly that war? Not only are the casualties of war, both military and civilian, a crying shame but those are only the tip of the iceberg. What of the countless widows and orphans made by war? Two of my children were made orphans because of war and their mother a widow. What of the immense damage done not only to homes and towns and cities but to God’s good earth? What of the psychological trauma felt by all involved that lingers for years?
Thus far in this pastor’s response there has been nothing to justify pledging one’s allegiance to something or someone other than Jesus. So far this has been an attempt to justify war and those who fight in wars. That is another issue altogether. The next portion of the letter tries to address the issue of bringing the state into the church.
Sad to say, some have tried to make this a secular nation (against all historical evidence) by omitting God from public life.
This may be the case. But how is colluding with the state within our sanctuaries an answer to this perceived problem? For the record, and as I stated above, it is a myth that our nation is “Christian.” For a good read on this I would recommend Greg Boyd’s Myth of a Christian Nation. But all of this is beside the point. We, the Church, are not to be the tail wagged by the dog which we name “Christian.” Our citizenship, Paul tells us, is not of this world or of any nation in this world but is in heaven. We do not look to the nation to take our spiritual pulse but we look to God’s revelation to us through Scripture and most importantly Jesus Christ. The Church’s ethic (way of being) is going to be far different from that of the world (or it should be). Where we look alike we must hear the words of the Apostle John in Revelation 18- “Come out!” Jesus prayed in John 17 that we would be “in the world” but not “of the world.” We are to be a beacon of light in a sea of darkness. How can we justify pledging our allegiance to a flag of a nation of which the Bible tells us we are not citizens? How do justify bringing the “world” (a nation) into our very sanctuaries which are meant to be “set apart” for doing the work of the Kingdom, a Kingdom established not by a sword by the blood of a slain Lamb?
They were building a new nation, under God. The pledge to allegiance honors both our history and our present attitude (which is like a prayer) that we believe that God is the Lord of this nation and we want to honor this fact with both our lips and our lives.
This pastor seems to not be aware of the history of our pledge. The original pledge, written in 1892, reads as follows:
“I Pledge Allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all.”
Notice there is no mention of God or “under God” in the pledge. The words “under God” were not officially added to the pledge until 1954, in part to make a distinction between us and communist nations whom were deemed to be nations apart from God. One of the unforeseen fall-outs of such an addition, I would argue, is that it became easy to assume that what was good for America was good for God. God and country became inseparably linked, for better or worse.
To conclude, we confess as Christians that we serve a God who is the God of ALL nations, tongues, peoples and tribes. In Christ there is no Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free. In Christ there are no national boundaries. While we are blessed at this present time to live in a country that grants us many freedoms we recognize that these are not Christian freedoms nor are they promised us by our God. They are for the moment blessings for which it is right to give thanks. But giving thanks is more like a “salute” than it is a pledge of allegiance. God is a jealous God and demands from us our all. To bring a flag into a church and pledge loyalty to it is to announce to the world that we serve two masters – Christ and the State. Is this how we wish to be viewed?
grace and peace.
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Filed under: Essays, Theology | Tagged: Church, Empire, flag, founding fathers, Fourth of July, military, Nationalism, Peace, Pledge of Allegiance, Violence, War







Chad,
A lot of good stuff here. It is striking to think about when and why “under God” was added to th pledge. America didn’t decide to call itself a nation under God until it became a convienient way to demonize the enemy. “Under God” is thus in its original intent actually opposed to God’s way of doing things – it creates enemies, and doesn’t love them. The name of God has been used as a weapon – Lord have mercy!
That’s an interesting point, Tom.
When we say that this or that is “under God” we are at the same time declaring that there are certain things or places that are not “under God.” Yet scripture is clear – ALL things (including nations and their leaders) are under God. Jesus said, “ALL authority on heaven and earth has been given to me.”
To insert “under God” to a national pledge sounds almost arrogant. As if we can determine whether we are under God or not. As if being “under God” is a choice we have.
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Thanks for this. I often struggle with the Pledge of Allegiance because it seems to put country before God. This is a well written and thought out post. Thank you.
Great post. I almost did not take my current job because the church had an American flag up on the chancel. The pastor was new at that time and since then he’s managed to move it. It reminded me far too much of seeing Nazi flags on the alters of churches in Germany.
Jjoe,
Scary thought (the Nazi flags).
I wouldn’t be opposed to having a flag in church so long as we had a flag depicting every nation on earth and confessed that all of them are “under God.”
Thanks for dropping in and leaving a comment. Peace to you.
How many people are you brainwashing in your church? I invite you to move to any other country in the world and talk as bad about it as you do America and see how long you stay out of prison or alive to that fact. you live in a fantasy world, Chad. Jesus lived in the real world and he died a violent death in the real world. Are you prepared to die for what you believe? There are only two people in history who have died for their brother–Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. And you have disgraced both by your liberal agenda!
I like what Tony Campolo said, “I love America! I think it’s the greatest Babylon in the world.”
Shame on you for disregarding the millions of other people who have given their lives for their brother.
Were those solders in the Twin Towers?
Do you think we fought WW2 alone?
How about all the martyred apostles?
How about the German Christians who defined the Nazis?
You are either breathtakingly ignorant or a very poor troll.
“There are only two people in history who have died for their brother–Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.”
Stephen,
Haven’t seen you around in awhile. I can’t really say you have been missed all that much.
What you call a “liberal agenda” I call being a citizen of heaven and not of this world. For the record, I am not bashing America. In fact, perhaps you forget that I have served 8 years in the Navy (ironic, huh?).
What I am against is a faith in Christ that has become Americanized. Your response is typical of those who think that America = God or that sacrificing oneself for a nation’s interest is akin to Christ sacrificing himself for all the universe. They are not the same.
But hey, I used to think the way you did once. It took reading “brainwashing” stuff like my post here over and over again before it finally sunk in. Perhaps the same will be true for you.
grace and peace
I also served 8 years in the Navy and my wife 13 years in the Air Force. You probably spent 8 years waiting until your enlistment was up and didn’t do a damn thing but complain or run away from conflict with your tail between your legs.
America is not God, it is the home God gave me to be a steward over while I am here on earth. I am to take care of it and you are destroying it. Tell me where else in the world you can go and spew the crap you do and not be killed for it! Yet you disrespect the very thing that allows you freedom of speech. Your hero is quickly revoking all your rights and you sit back like a pansy and allow it to happen. There was no other place on earth like America, now it is becoming like every place else.
A revolution is coming!!
Stephen,
You obviously have a lot of anger issues to sort out – issues that go far beyond the scope of this blog.
I’m not sure why you would characterize my time in the service as you chose to do. You really don’t know a thing about me. Nor is any of that a concern of yours.
As for being a good steward, yes, we all should be that. But be a good steward of what God desires us to be good stewards of – the entire earth. Not just your particular nation. How are you being a good steward of the earth when you drop bombs on much of it?
While you worry about rights being revoked I have no such worries. Partly because I don’t believe Christians should lay claim to any “rights.” The idea of having “rights” is an American concept, not a Christian one. We have gifts. All that we have, even our very lives, are gifts. You nor I are entitled to any of it.
When you begin seeing life as gift and all that is in it, you may let go some of your hostility towards all the people you think are trying to ruin your life.
grace and peace,
Chad
If you have ho worries of your rights, why did you join the Navy. what was the point? What you fail to realize is that if it weren’t for that document we call the Constitution, you wouldn’t be allowed to post your crap out hear, let alone pastor a church. You also receive a salary from that church, which happens to be an American thing, not a Christian thing you weasel. I am a Christian. I also am an American. Why can’t I fight for what is right? Didn’t Jesus? He actually died for doing such. I’ll bet when all this goes down, you be one of the first to convert to Islamichristianity and say it is what God wants.
Fool!
Stephen,
I was in the Navy a long time ago, Stephen – 1993-2001. That was before I gave my life to Christ and long before I knew anything about “rights” vs. “gifts.”
My faith is not in the Constitution but in the God who is above all kings, rulers, nations and dominions. I pledge my allegiance to God and God alone. I’m sorry if you find that offensive. But if you are a Christian, I see no real alternative.
And there are hundreds of countries that do not have our Constitution where people still go to church and even, of all things, blog. I have friends all over the world that enjoy much of the same freedoms we do here. I am grateful for that – aren’t you?
“Fighting for what is right?” Seriously? Where did Jesus fight? He laid down his life for what is right. He didn’t fight.
You are welcome to call me a “fool.” I’m not the one, however, who calls this blog “crap” and yet continues to come back to read it and comment.
grace and peace.
Stephan,
I am perplexed at a number of things you said…”you get paid a salary, which is an American thing not a Christian thing”?
Dude you need to get out of the country more often… last time I checked getting paid a wage for a service and of your time was not started by America nor is it unique to America. Has anyone ever told you that America is ONLY a little over 200 years old? Or that we are not the only country on the planet? Are you really as ignorant as you sound…America invented the salary? LOL… best to mock others when you actually have a clue. You may disagree with Chad and his “liberal agenda” as you call it and you certainly have a right to, but you may want to do it when you speak a little better and have a little more knowledge than you are showing us here! America invented the salary…HAHAHAHA… and you called Chad a fool? LOL
Seriously dude, get a grip on your faith… sounds like it has a grip on you. Your faith tells you what to believe and how to believe it…rather than having a trust in Jesus and letting him define your faith! You make it sound as if EVERYTHING America does is great and right. Or because we live here we must agree with everything America does or stands for!
You say Jesus died for what is right… is Abortion right? So maybe you should be out trying to figure out how to get your pal America to see that Abortion is wrong and make it illegal? All Chad and others are trying to say is, have your trust in Jesus and not in America… if America chooses to do something wrong am I forced to say it is right? Are you a NAZI skinhead Stevo? Hail Obama! Hail Bush! Hail Clinton! Is that what you shout every morning…? And you mentioned Jesus died for what is right, Jesus was ALWAYS speaking against the government and the religious folks who ruled Israel, it was the religious few in Israel that were in bed with the government and they joined the government in their oppression of Israel so that they could at least do their daily religious rituals and keep their hearts right with God (or so they thought)… and making a few bucks doing so wasn’t all that bad of a deal for the religious crew of the 1st century… It was this practice (religion mixed with the government that Jesus spoke harshly about…but you are an American and have no clue what Jesus stood up against apparently!
OR your hatred for Chad and his ideas are clouding any good judgment you have! Something to think about, eh!
Peace to you all
Tony
Tony,
Good thoughts, but I wouldn’t trouble yourself. Stephen is a fly that buzzes around here now and then. He vents and spews a bunch of angry rhetoric and then leaves. I have probably indulged him already more than I should.
peace.
Hey Tony Simony–
Only American pastors get paid high salaries. Go to Africa and see how much a Christian African pastor makes-nothing close to your buddy Chad. Heck Chad even has a computer, something those guys in Africa don’t anything about. You barked up the wrong tree and made yourself look stupid, Tony. You spoke out of anger instead of reading what I had to say.
America does do every thing great and right. Give me and example of a country like ours. You can’t because they all suck in comparison to America. Is Canada great? Germany? England? France? If they are, go live there–we don’t want you here.
And Chad, the reason I come back to read your “crap” is because the wishy washy pansy azzed fake gospel you preach needs to be stopped.
Mat 24:11 “and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.”
Stephen,
I guess it makes you feel better to mock people, go right ahead bro. I thought we were out of the 6th grade by now…
As far as American’s only paying their pastors a salary, I say again…you need to get out of the country more often! I realize many pastors in other less fortunate countries have and do with much less, but is that room for you to bash Chad or anyone living modestly in America? All of these same arguments can be made of you don’t you think? Whatever you do you don’t do it for free and whatever you have is certainly more than most people in the world! But that goes for all of us in the United States, the question is do we recognize it, and do we desire to make a difference in the world because of it. Or do we just let America do it on the churches behalf?
I don’t see Chad or anyone here advocating for pastors to make $500,000 per year claiming that God has his back that is why he deserves to make so much money!
Stephen, I am not angry I can assure you of that… it takes a lot more than a few words to get under my skin, let me quote you again since you think your view is sooooo right and I am missing your point,
“America does do every thing great and right.”
Is anyone else confused by this statement? Seriously, there are a lot of things I disagree with when it comes to America, just as there are a lot of things I agree with and love about America; but this has nothing to do with weather or not I think this is a great country Steve, why can you not separate the two? America is good yes, but not perfect and certainly she doesn’t do EVERTHING right!
When we decide everything is perfect with what we have or what we believe we cease to grow, and I believe many in the Church and this great country we call home have fallen victim to thinking they have all the answers. Thus America and a big part of the Christian community have failed to grow in a lot of ways in recent years!
Peace
Tony
[Deleted]
Stephen, I never delete comments around here. I won’t delete the one’s where you insult me and act like a child towards me but when you do it to other guests here I won’t tolerate it.
Either treat others with the respect you would like to be treated with or find somewhere else to spread your anger.
Chad,
You should include the insults, it makes us all realize who we are dealing with! Let Stephen be himself here even if the comments are out of line, I’m a big boy and I can handle it : )
Tony
Since Chad deleted my comment (probably because he knows it directly negates what he preaches about America) before Tony could answer, here goes–
Tony Simony said “When we decide everything is perfect with what we have or what we believe we cease to grow, and I believe many in the Church and this great country we call home have fallen victim to thinking they have all the answers”
Stephen says-”We do have all the answers. The answer to everything is Jesus. Isn’t that what grace is all about? We have it–been having it for over 200 years, yet it has been systematically taken out of everything this country stood for, thanks to anti American fools like yourselves hiding your liberal agenda under the guise of religion. God is a part of everything, including the government. The Constitution may call for separation, but God cannot be taken out of our everyday lives just because the government tells me to do so. God and country is how it used to be until liberals undermined everything.
Well I can see we are going to get nowhere with this, you continue to read what you want into what I say… this seems to be a theme for you Stephen.
My point was this, Jesus is the answer yes… but who’s version? Apparently you alone have the right version and He is standing on an American tank with a machine gun cussing at anyone who stands in America’s way.
I am far from liberal, I simply think like every American for the last 200 years and Christian who has had a brain for the last 2000 years! Thinking for yourself is a good thing, and change from the status quo is always better than refusing to change when the change is because of God! By the way, the man you claim to follow acted this way.
Pharisees = I have all the answers about God I need
This is you Stephen just incase you miss this one too!
Jesus = Pharisees are fools, broad of vipers, etc…
Jesus said this because they thought they had it all figured out and denied the God they claimed to love. They were so steep in their traditions and self righteous pride they missed it when God was sitting in their midst, and they killed him!
By the way… if Martin Luther had taken your stance that he has all he needs in Jesus so there is no need to grow… you would be a Catholic! Thank God for men like Martin Luther who understood we are to be growing in this life that is spiritual and not just sitting under some banner that says, I have everything I need, I said a prayer to Jesus when I was 5, and He came into my heart! The rest of you are going to hell… God Bless America!
Peace
Tony
Still in 6th grade I see with the mocking… sad bro!
Tony said-”Pharisees = I have all the answers about God I need
This is you Stephen just incase you miss this one too!”
Stephen says – “You have a lot of nerve calling me a Pharisee, you hypocrite. I guess YOU have all the answers, don’t you? Who’s interpretation of scripture is correct? It all depends on your belief system. of which yours happens to be liberal.”
America has helped countries through the last two hundred years and you, like Barak Obama make us sound like the great demon. India causes more pollution than America, yet it’s America’s fault the world is warming. America is to blame for all the bad in the world, isn’t it? And yes I will stand up for this country because it is my home. It was founded on Judeo-Christian principals and because of mamby pamby postmodern Christianity , that is going the way of the dinosaur. I will continue to fight against your false gospel.
The polls are showing America doesn’t want what you have to offer, Tony!
By the way, Martin Luther was a jerk because he was anti semitic.HE is no hero in my eyes–he only caused more division within the Body of Christ.
[EDITED: Stephen, I deleted the parts where you make fun of someone's name. From now on all your comments will go to moderation. I would have thought that your time in the Navy would have taught you a little about respect. If not that, than certainly your claims to be a Christian should teach you about taming your tongue, or in this case, your fingers.]
Wow, where to start… Well let me start by saying I realize you think your stance is correct and your zeal is commendable, I just hope someday you find a way to mix that passion and zeal with respect for others… only then will you make an impact!
My comment about you acting like a pharisee… I simply connected the attitude of the Pharisees that Jesus dealt with very harshly to some of your comments on this blog! Anyone reading this can see who has what attitude. I can assure you my friend that I don’t claim to have it all figured out and I have been through a number of experiences over the last 3 years that have changed my life and my view on who God is… so nice try on the Pharisee hypocrite thing : )
Then you go back to me hating America… again you need to read everything again, I have never said America is bad I repeatedly said I love America and the principles on which we were founded… what I sad is that EVERYTHING America does is not good and perfect as you seem to believe. I love this country and I value where I live… but it is not perfect and it is not the Kingdom of God. You can either separate the two or you will continue to get things twisted.
I am for the Kingdom of God first and foremost, plain and simple. If its Kingdom minded then I claim it… weather its American or not. If it’s anti-kingdom then I condemn it, weather it’s American or not… This is what Jesus did! The Pharisees embraced the oppressive political kingdom they were under to save their own butts! As long as they were taken care of, they really didn’t care that more of their own people were being oppressed and killed for the sake of the political kingdom they embraced. Maybe I can make this clear to you… if you say EVERYTHING America does is wonderful, and you do nothing to make a difference when it comes to say ABORTION, then are you not condoning the action?
Edmond Burke says,
“Evil in the world is seeing injustice and doing nothing. Indifferece is sin!”
If you ignore injustice in some area because that which causes injustice is the American thing to do, if you turn your head to injustice because then you would actually have to admit that America did something wrong (GASP!) then it’s SIN… and God is not pleased. Call injustice pride out of country and you have just missed the whole point of the gospel!
So you go ahead and keep pleasing America, while ignoring God my friend… I will love God first and love the America he placed me in to be a light! But not the other way around… I don’t have it twisted!
Then you say I have a false gospel and it’s “mamby pamby”… our discussion has primarily been about if America has EVERYTHING right or not… explain to me how you think the gospel I follow is false and America doesn’t want it… and what poll was that. If your going to say everyone thinks a certain way and quote a poll you gotta sight the poll. What poll is that?
Last and certainly not least, you mock Martin Luther (BIG SHOCKER) and call him a jerk. Then you say he is not your hero… read the comment from me again, I never said he was your hero or mine. I am not reformed in doctrine, yet I value the example he gives us to always be reforming, always be seeking the heart of God and respect those who are seeking his heart as well. You win your friends not your enemies! Jesus said love your enemies, because then they will see the heart of God… if you hate then they see hate and nothing different!
And for the record I wish your comments of making fun of my name were on the blog because they really only say something about you… they certainly don’t worry me! Godspeed!
Peace
Tony
Sorry I was logged in somehow through another blog!
Wow, where to start… Well let me start by saying I realize you think your stance is correct and your zeal is commendable, I just hope someday you find a way to mix that passion and zeal with respect for others… only then will you make an impact!
My comment about you acting like a pharisee… I simply connected the attitude of the Pharisees that Jesus dealt with very harshly to some of your comments on this blog! Anyone reading this can see who has what attitude. I can assure you my friend that I don’t claim to have it all figured out and I have been through a number of experiences over the last 3 years that have changed my life and my view on who God is… so nice try on the Pharisee hypocrite thing : )
Then you go back to me hating America… again you need to read everything again, I have never said America is bad I repeatedly said I love America and the principles on which we were founded… what I sad is that EVERYTHING America does is not good and perfect as you seem to believe. I love this country and I value where I live… but it is not perfect and it is not the Kingdom of God. You can either separate the two or you will continue to get things twisted.
I am for the Kingdom of God first and foremost, plain and simple. If its Kingdom minded then I claim it… weather its American or not. If it’s anti-kingdom then I condemn it, weather it’s American or not… This is what Jesus did! The Pharisees embraced the oppressive political kingdom they were under to save their own butts! As long as they were taken care of, they really didn’t care that more of their own people were being oppressed and killed for the sake of the political kingdom they embraced. Maybe I can make this clear to you… if you say EVERYTHING America does is wonderful, and you do nothing to make a difference when it comes to say ABORTION, then are you not condoning the action?
Edmond Burke says,
“Evil in the world is seeing injustice and doing nothing. Indifferece is sin!”
If you ignore injustice in some area because that which causes injustice is the American thing to do, if you turn your head to injustice because then you would actually have to admit that America did something wrong (GASP!) then it’s SIN… and God is not pleased. Call injustice pride out of country and you have just missed the whole point of the gospel!
So you go ahead and keep pleasing America, while ignoring God my friend… I will love God first and love the America he placed me in to be a light! But not the other way around… I don’t have it twisted!
Then you say I have a false gospel and it’s “mamby pamby”… our discussion has primarily been about if America has EVERYTHING right or not… explain to me how you think the gospel I follow is false and America doesn’t want it… and what poll was that. If your going to say everyone thinks a certain way and quote a poll you gotta sight the poll. What poll is that?
Last and certainly not least, you mock Martin Luther (BIG SHOCKER) and call him a jerk. Then you say he is not your hero… read the comment from me again, I never said he was your hero or mine. I am not reformed in doctrine, yet I value the example he gives us to always be reforming, always be seeking the heart of God and respect those who are seeking his heart as well. You win your friends not your enemies! Jesus said love your enemies, because then they will see the heart of God… if you hate then they see hate and nothing different!
And for the record I wish your comments of making fun of my name were on the blog because they really only say something about you… they certainly don’t worry me! Godspeed!
Peace
Tony
Did our Founding Fathers not trust in God? Did they not take action? If they would have sat back doing nothing waiting on God like your teaching says we’d all be buying our tea with pounds today. So according to what you teach, Chad, we are supposed to watch our country go down the drain and do nothing and let God take care of everything. Does he not use humans to accomplish His will?
Hey Steve,
I think the point people have been trying to make that you seem to have a hard time connecting with is that you assume that it’s God’s will that Christian’s in America promote the adjenda of America. If you truly believe that, as a Christian, your primary citizenship is of a God’s spiritual kingdom first then it shouldn’t matter what kind of Government you live under. Yes America is great and you should feel blessed to be there but the as Christ followers and ambassadors of a spiritual kingdom our goal should be to do spiritual battle to advance that spiritual kingdom. The earthly kingdom (America) that you find yourself in shouldn’t make any difference at all.
A great American song writer once said it well when he wrote “My first allegence is not to a flag, a country, or a man. My first allegence is not to democracy or blood, it’s to a King and a Kingdom”.
Steve, I get that you have a difficult time separating you Love for God and your Love for your country but scripture is clear that your love for God should take priorety over all other earthly devotions, you cannot serve 2 masters.
One more thing I hope we can all keep our words from being so harsh with one another. We may disagree but we are all brothers in Christ and for his sake and because of his example we aught to be able to love each other better then what has been demonstrated in this comment section so far. We should not be so quick to hurl insults at our spiritual family.
God bless you steve, hope you have a good day.
Jasen
Jasen-
A word all of us need to hear. Thank you.
peace.
Stephen,
I debated whether or not to even answer your question. However, for once you managed to ask what appears to be an honest question and so against my better judgment I’ll bite.
The founding fathers were more or less cultural Christians than anything else. Many if not most were what we would call Deists, which meant they believed in a God but this God kicked off the whole world and then remained absent, watching it all go by. God was not actively present in the world, according to Deists. It is well documented that Thomas Jefferson, for example, cut out of his Bible all the parts where miracles were involved (much of his New Testament). He did they because they did not believe God intervened in such ways.
Stephen, the thing that strikes me about most of your questions and responses is that you seem to think there is no worse fate that could fall upon a person than to lose certain “rights” or “freedoms.” Your comments make you sound like a very good patriot but not a very good follower of Jesus Christ. Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. We are either “of this world” or we are citizens of heaven. Frankly, I find your arrogant attitude about America and your disdain for anyone or any country that isn’t flying the red, white, and blue to be repulsive and lacking in any sort of Christian charity. God did not send Jesus into the world to save America but all nations and peoples. And God did not send Jesus into the world to secure for us the “inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” Those are American values, not biblical ones.
I think it is interesting that within the last few years a serious revision of the historical documents pertaining to our founding fathers has occurred. Were some of them deists, yes. Many, however, professed to be Christians, called themselves Christians and felt that one of the main reasons for coming to America was to expand Christ’s kingdom to the “New World”.
I think, Chad, that you have fallen victim to one of the misconceptions that is being promoted in many academic areas, but is very hard to substantiate from the actual writings of the early fathers and people who observed the early fathers.
It is also important to remember that the land was settled by pilgrims and other immigrants for almost 150 years before it became an actual country, and many of these people (again from their actual writings) professed to be Christian and were very obviously not just diests.
-Blessings
I am tired of the Deist argument. If our Founding Fathers were Deists, they still believed in God regardless of their view of how He runs the world. “Our Founding Fathers were Deists”–SO FREAKING WHAT?? THEY WERE STILL BELIEVERS!!! Why did they even bother to pray if God was not actively involved in the world? It is a known fact they prayed. Why does the president take his oath swearing on the Bible? You are duped as Mike said Chad and you preach a false gospel.
You’d make a great Canadian!!
Take care, Stephen.
Mike,
That all may be true. But why does it matter?
Whether or not America was founded by Christians (true ones or otherwise) has little to no bearing on whether or not we should pledge our allegiance to any nation. It does not mean that what is good for America is good for God or vice versa.
So really, it’s a moot point, don’t you think?
peace,
Chad
I agree 100%. I think the pledge of allegiance in church is well… a little misplaced. It smacks of Nation = God instead of one nation under God.
-Blessings
Mike,
I agree that many were true believers and some were not… but that is the beauty of our country, freedom of religion was in the constitution for a reason. Even with having the idea of One Nation under God, the forefathers had enough insight and love for humanity that they recognized people need to be free to worship as they saw fit and this freedom was the ultimate way to the God of the bible. But more to the discussion at hand, the question remains who are we following… Jesus or America… do we follow kingdom principles or the American Way? There are many things steeped in our American Culture that take away from the kingdom of God, and I think we need to be more focused on what God is doing than our President! Do we love this country and value what we have in America, absolutely… should I just take what America throws at me and call it good even if I think it is anti-American?
Peace
Tony
So Tony Spumone calls me a Pharisee and you keep his comment posted and I make a little jest of his name. You people are too sensitive. Must be the liberal in you. Get over it and be a man, Chad!! Don’t want to make anyone cry, do we?
If you disagree with Tony comparing you to a Pharisee than stop acting like one, or show why he has misunderstood you. There is no need to be disrespectful, though. I have one rule here and one rule only – be respectful. Until you can grow up and talk like an adult your comments will be moderated.
Remember BiblicalThought.com, Chad?
They did the same thing to you that you are doing to me right now.
You did not agree with them and they called you a heretic. How am I any different? Just the shoe is on the other foot now.
You are not as graceful as you make yourself out to be. You seem to accept only those who agree with you and give you accolades. Enjoy your reward because you have received it in full.
The difference between there and here, Stephen, is I never treated them with disrespect. They deleted me because they didn’t wish to defend their positions. I am moderating you because you are rude. That is the difference. Surely you can see that.
If you look around here you will find many voice that disagree with me and I with them. Yet we treat each other like brothers and sisters.
peace.
What about the fly, Chad? Can’t answer that can you?
Grace to you bro!!
Thanks, Stephen. Take care.
“I feel sorry for you and everyone who holds you to be some great teacher of “truth.” Your words and posture towards other are little different from cultic leaders.”
Sounds kind of condescending and disrespectful of Bob Morey, doesn’t it Chad?
Remember those words?? There are plenty more out there if you would like me to post them for you. And they are ALL yours!!
And I am not respectful? I didn’t claim to have respect for you or Tony or any other pansy liberal on your blog. If I am to respect you, you have to earn it. Hypocrisy is not worthy of respect.