The more I engage in conversations with people about the universal love God has for the world and his desire to redeem the world the more I find myself scratching my head at some of the objections that are raised or the assumptions leveled at people like myself. Whether I am being told that I have forsaken all talk of judgment or sin or that I should be ashamed to give “false hope” to the lost by espousing some philosophy like “I’m OK, you’re OK, we are all OK,” the point is clear: Either I am a) not yet well versed enough in this matter to articulate my understanding of God’s universal reconcilation or, b) I am, as one friend puts it, “slippery,” or, c) as others have so eloquenty put it, I am still lost and need to just “read my Bible” and “find Jesus.” If I have a choice, I’ll take letter ‘a’.
In hopes of hammering this out for me and for others and in an effort to be more clear (less slippery) I am going to post a version of a response I gave some friends over at another site. Primarily this deals with the objection that the view I am coming to see as the core of the Gospel inevitably gives the lost a false hope that they can do whatever and all will be well. I would welcome your comments in the spirit of a people who long to do nothing more than to know and love God with all their hearts, souls, bodies and minds.
I scream and dribble my coffee because your comments assume a posture towards the lost that I do not share. If I have ever said anything that would indicate that in my conversations to one who does not know Jesus I would say anything that sounds like “hey, don’t worry, there is a puppy waiting for you in heaven and you can ride a unicorn while chasing Care Bears” then forgive my lack of clarity, for nothing could be further from the truth.
So, a few points:
1 – Like much of Jesus’ words of judgment upon Israel were a “family squabble” (as I have called them elsewhere) these sorts of conversations about God’s wrath and God’s universal love should be seen in a similar light. My audience here are Christians (at least those responding) and so this is a “family squabble” over the love God has for the entire world and the hope that we as Christians should have for all the world – That NONE should perish but that ALL might have eternal life (and note, eternal life does not mean simply, “go to heaven when they die”). This, after all, is the desire of God Himself – that none should perish. I believe our desires should match those of our Creator.
2- I affirm that God is the Judge, not us. When we speculate about what someone’s eternal destination is we cease to trust that God is judge and God alone but, rather, He in some way needs our input. Discussions among Christians (as we are here) about who will be or who should be going to hell is not only unproductive but says to the world (among other things) that in the end, all we and God really care about is the life after this.
3- In no way am I “offering eternal comfort to the unregenerate.” Comments like this have moved us from the realm of the abstract (our family squabble – debating the magnitude of God’s love for all the world and the hope we as Christians have within us that in this One, this Jesus, perhaps ALL the world COULD and WILL be saved) to the concrete, the practical. So, what is my response when faced with one who does not know Jesus? I proclaim to them the good news. I would tell them THE TRUTH ABOUT THEMSELVES. I call them to repent, to turn from the sinful, destructive ways in which they have until now lived their lives and invite them into a way of being/living that brings life while partnering with the Creator of the universe in bring about the redemption and the healing of all the nations (the world). Now, do I tell them if they do not they will burn forever in hell? No. Just like I do not find anyone in Scripture threatening the same. But, let us assume they tell me that they believe God is loving and will let everyone in heaven anyways no matter what. What would I say to this? I would say: Maybe, maybe not. If God does, it will ONLY be because of the person and work of Jesus who died for you even while you were weak, a sinner and an enemy towards God. But, you are a child of God – you are created in the image of God and loved by this God. To refuse to live in relationship with your heavenly Father, the one who is the giver and sustainer of life, is to be less than human. God created you for fellowship with him and if you continue to reject his offering of fellowship and love and grace than you reject life. Today you are being invited to play a role in the coming Kingdom of God – to enjoy the abundant life that God wants you to know. Are you willing to risk snubbing that love to the point where you eventually cease to be human? Where you eventually cease to bear any semblance of the image of God in you? Where God is no longer the one who sustains you (even as he is now, while you are obstinate?) Can you imagine a life where this God leaves you to yourself and your own devices for all eternity? That , in a word, would be hell.
4- But what of those I never get to meet or share that message? Now we are back to our family squabble. I believe something was done in Christ that is cosmic. I believe Jesus stands in the gap for those who cannot stand for themselves. I affirm that God’s desire that none should perish will in the end, win. I even affirm that God’s desire may in the end trump our own obstinance (as it did Israel’s time and time again).
5- I look forward with expectation the Day of Judgment. Judgment is not something feared in scripture but anticipated. It is when evil will be named, dealt with, judged and the world will be set to rights. Gods glory will fill the heavens and earth. I affirm that we can have hope and confidence on this day because our Judge is also the Man of Sorrows, the Prince of Peace, the Servant of All, the one who seeks until found, the one who died for even me.
That, in a nutshell, is my take – one that I believe mirros the witness and testimony of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. It is the story we find ourselves in. I hope all will find their part.
grace and peace.
Filed under: Theology | Tagged: heaven, hell, Jesus Christ, Love, Universalism
Chad,
We have differences as a chasm between us; however, I did want to say sincerely that I appreciate and respect that you speak plainly of your beliefs.
You and me agree here that the discussion concerns “the core of the Gospel.” If I might offer a suggestion, perhaps you should put a link within this piece to your “The Truth About You” post as well.
Ok, what have you done with Ken Silva?
Thank you for the gracious response, Ken. I hope all future comments and disagreements are spoken in the same spirit.
I have taken your suggestion (it was a good one) and inserted the link to that sermon above. Thanks for that.
peace.
Chad,
I am wrestling with this Universal truth as well. I constantly run into scriptures that plainly state God’s desire for ALL to be saved, He is reconciling ALL things to Himself, and that Jesus has not only lived, died, and rose again…but He is interceding for us all right now! And then there are the other passages that seem to imply something a little different. There is a place where people go when they die and maybe not everyone goes there. Anyway, I enjoyed your thoughts…I was not raised in Church and have been sorting through the mess of Theology for about 10 years now as a believer, and it has only been the last 2 years I actually started thinking for myself
God certainly can save everyone if He wants to…who am I to question God? But will He? I’m open to the truth (whatever it is…and I will always be searching for more clarity of that truth) and I believe if more people would be open to the truth, no matter what that truth is our conversations within the family would be much more fruitful and reconciling rather than divisive! So wrestle on with how to articulate this truth you have found, and may we be like Martin Luther who said,
“I shall never be a heretic; I may err in dispute, but I do not wish to decide anything finally; on the other hand, I am not bound by the opinions of men.”
Peace
Tony
Chad-
Nice post. My personal beliefs lie in the same line. I esspecially agree with point #2. Thank God he didn’t put us humans in charge of the Gates of Heaven. Peter might be up there checking the guest list, but he’s not a human so much as a rock
Keep up the good work!
Good stuff Chad. The older I get the more I realize that we are all a bunch of sinners who need God’s grace.
Christ did die for all, and who won’t be saved? That’s God’s call, our job is to spread the good news and call people to repent and find Jesus.
Part of the problem (as I see it) comes from the reformed system itself. If you buy into the system it will influence your view on others and of course those who are pre destined to be the elect. My problem with any system is that its an artificial construct that hinders our seeing God. We see through a glass darkly as it is. Throw in our cultural worldview, theological biases and anything else and we begin to see how interpretation on many issues can become difficult.
That’s why I have become so Christocentric. Jesus is the only thing I can really understand!
Excellent! Tony’s story is so similar to mine. I’m still figuring this “all” vs. “if you don’t believe you’ll end up in hell” out. Sigh! Sometimes I wish I could in back to a shallow reading of the Bible and just ignorantly keep my “glasses” on and claim “the Bible clearly states…”.
Ok. The longing to be shallow again past… I love this journey of understanding God’s grace towards and plan for His creation.
Chad,
Great post. The attitude I perceive coming from the people giving you these objections to the inescapable love of G-d is this “Somebody’s got to burn in hell forever, dammit!”
I guess we should rejoice that we’ve moved past the Calvinistic view that G-d created the vast majority of His creation to never hear the gospel and for the sole purpose of eternal torment for His glory. At least now we’re down to G-d reluctantly sending the few strays who absolutely refuse to come into the fold into Eternal Torment. Praise G-d for humble beginnings. Now we’re having a discussion about whether it’s theoretically possible to escape G-d forever. That at least takes Him out of the role of a deliberate sadist and puts Him the role of reluctant sadist and one who is not quite capable of bringing us all back.
If you haven’t read “The Inescapable Love of God” by Thomas Talbott yet, I cannot recommend it highly enough, BTW.
Have you heard the story of the universalist preacher Hosea Ballou? Your post brings that story to mind. He was riding with another preacher who objected that if he believed Universalism were true, he could kill Brother Ballou, steal his horse, remain unrepentant and escape the flames of Hell. Brother Ballou replied with “Ah, but if you were a Universalist, that would never cross your mind.”. The objection that if there is no hell people would have no motivation to live a good life or to “come to Jesus” is a completely false one. We should all strive to live a good life for the sake of being fully human, for the sake of being fully what G-d created us to be. We come to Jesus not out of fear or obligation but out of gratitude. Gratitude that, WHILE WE WERE STILL ENEMIES, He laid His life down for us. Martin Zender in “The Really Bad Thing About Free Will” does a great job of outlining this in just a few pages.
There are those of us who believe that G-d will save everyone who believe in an “age” of punishment. A lot of debate about whether the punishment talked about in Matthew is eternal or for an “age” centers around the translation of the word aionian which can mean a number of things. But, based on its context in many places in the NT, it clearly does NOT mean eternal as poorly translated in many versions of the Bible. I believe there is a “judgment” in which we face our past, the hurts we’ve caused, etc. Universalism does not mean getting off “scott free” Universalism means that, ultimately, somehow, the love of G-d is sufficient to save all of G-d’s children.
Theoretically, could some reject G-d forever? I think Talbott makes a good case for why the answer is “no”. And, I happen to agree with Talbott. I also think the Bible (especially Paul) is very clear that “all” means all. If one takes Paul literally and all were guilty in Adam (regardless of our participation in his sin), how can that same person say not all were redeemed in Christ, regardless of their participation in His sacrifice?
Peace,
Brian
Hey Chad,
I gave this post some blog love. If you want to mail me a certain iced beverage from Pa b/c of that….
I deeply want to agree with you, but find I (almost) can’t. I gave some exploration here, http://rericsawyer.wordpress.com/2008/02/24/how-can-a-loving-god-damn-people-to-hell-a-response/
For me, and perhaps for you if I read correctly, universal salvation is based on a hope, or in your case, expectation, that all will be reconciled to God in Christ ultimately. It may be so. But while we are on this side of such reconciliation, we must be clear, as I think you have intended.
My objections are centered two-fold:
1) Jesus did not seem to embrace the idea. The story of sheep v. goats, depart into outer darkness, depart from me, I never knew you, etc. seem to hold out at least the possibility that such a fate may come to some of us.
2) If God is all truth, whose very name is “I AM” then I take heaven to mean at a minimum, reconciliation with the way things really are: the nature of who I am, including the darkness in my own soul; the false judgments I hold about my enemies –was Hitler really more evil than I? Or was he acting out his involuntary insanity, while I do evil of my own free choice?- even the truth about what God had to do to work reconciliation, and free us from bondage.
If Heaven means united to truth without darkness, what happens if I choose to reject truth, while knowing it to be true? How can I be united to something while at the same time reject it? I think such insistence would place one, by definition, “outside” and in darkness.
The question, though, is what will God do about such a case. Will He simply trump my own will, and transform my thoughts into His thoughts? Put the “mind of Christ” in me? This doesn’t seem the pattern, nor does it seem consistent with what I understand God to be about in our creation; namely the development of autonomous beings who love out of freedom, with no compulsion – a small scale replication of Himself. For His will and purpose to be fulfilled, our choices must be efficacious, and of eternal weight.
A second possibility is that God will continue to work with me, to woo me into the light, to heal my darkness until I am won, across all eternity if that is what it takes. This seems the only plausible nail to hang the universal hope on, and it may be true. But there is a danger in assuming it, “I know I’ll give in eventually, so I can continue my rebellion as long as I wish” I am leery of adopting a position that is so clearly identified with my own self-interest, that so neatly dovetails with my own wish-fulfillment dreams, esp. in light of my first objection, from the words of Jesus.
I only have a minute but wanted to thank everyone for their responses thus far, especially the spirit in which they have been given. I just finished a final exam and am on my way to preach a funeral, so I cannot respond right now to all of you. I will asap.
Till then – grace and peace.
Hey Chad -
I headed over here because of the link from Joe Martino’s blog, so send him that beverage from PA.
I hear what you are saying, and I think it makes a valid and biblical point. I appreciate your openness, and like Ken, appreciate you putting it out there openly and honestly, unlike ‘many’ who seem to be playing with those who ask what their position on biblical matters is.
That said, let me ask this. Isn’t it necessary to hold two seemingly opposite biblical truths in tension? The poles in a circus tent remain standing because of the ropes and/or wires that pull at it from all sides. Sufficient tension on the wires makes it possible for the tent to stand.
Is it possible that your approach emphasizes the truth of His mercy to the detriment of biblical truths regarding repentance and judgment? We aren’t called to be rude. Paul calls us to make the most of every opportunity toward outsiders in Col 4, but the truth about judgment and separation which Jesus himself teaches should chill our blood and lead us to share the gospel with all our heart and soul and mind and strength, and to do it in a loving and winsome way.
Can we speak of His universal desire for all to be saved (in an academic context, not in a conversation with someone who is lost) without mentioning that God might have prepared some for wrath? (Romans 9:22).
Trust me, it’s not that I wouldn’t like to agree that God wants ALL to be saved and WILL make that happen… it IS our task to be faithful to the Word to see whom God is and what he is saying precisely.
Hopefully, I answered that with the degree of niceness which Joe called for. I look forward to your response.
Keith
I’m sorry to not have replied earlier Chad, I’ve been quite busy. Actually, though I disagree with your conclusions, I respect you for speaking plainly.
As a matter of fact I have said to people I know that you are the one who actually caused me to begin looking into this subject.
I remember when you told Chris Lyons that in the years you’ve listened to Rob Bell’s sermons and read his work this is what you understand him to be saying.
So as I told you earlier, I also see this in Bell’s meaasge and I am currently going through Willimon’s “Who Will Be Saved?”, which appears to mirror Bell and what you say above here and in your other post that you linked.
sorry for being so behind on responding. I appreciate everyone’s patience!
Tony – Thanks for that word. It’s good to see a fellow brother who is also wrestling with the things of God
I think this keeps us humble….or should.
Derek- Thanks for dropping by. I think the way many people in Christian circles these days have dismissed Jesus’ command to not judge has spread like a cancer. Why the obsession with asking, “Well, what about them?”
Ron- Thanks for sharing. I agree the Reformed system (and any system) leaves much to be desired. Early on in the Church Origen had everyone in heaven while Augustine had nearly everyone in hell. Those of us in the West have been greatly influenced by the latter. Calvin had a lot of things right but his idea of limited atonement (that Jesus died for just some) is what John Wesley despised the greatest and said he would rather be called a heretic than believe God died only for some.
I think you are right in naming the lens through which to see faith and scripture is Jesus. Christ is the fullest expression of who God is. To see Jesus is to see the Father. I find it odd how often people pit the rest of scripture against Jesus while jumping through hoops to say they are not being contradictory.
Eugene- Glad the longing subsided
Brian-
Thanks for coming by. I hope some readers here discover your blog.
You are right to name as one of the objections the fear that people will no longer be compelled to follow God if they do not have hell to pay for not. What is ironic is the same people that make that objection would most likely say that they think it wrong for people to come to Christ for “fire insurance.” That we love God because he first loved us. In some respects I think the fear here is the sense that the bigger the giant, the harder it falls. In other words, the concept of an eternal hell where God punishes forever those who do not know him (and perhaps those who willingly reject him) has so captured our imaginations for soooo long that to let go of that is like discovering a new identity – it is so very scary and feels as though a part of us is dying.
And if God is going to save everyone in the end does that not make everyone my neighbor? Does this mean that I, as a Christian (who has it right, dangit), cannot go around judging who is “in” and who is “out”? Does it mean that I can’t act superior to others any longer? Does it mean that I can’t use my God and my scriptures as a weapon to fashion alligiance to my cause or nation or culture or race? Does it mean that, in the end, the thing I am left to do is simply love God and love my neighbor as myself? Where is the fun in that?
You said that Talbott makes a good argument that in the end even our rejection of God will be nullified. I will have to read that book. If it is not too much trouble can you describe his reason here or link to it?
My theology professor said some similar things and I am curious if they are alike in that. Basically, drawing from Karl Barth, it is that in the end God gets the final say and his “yes” to Creation subsumes our “no’s.” In other words, he says that God’s Judgment is judgment on our judgment. I’m still working that out.
peace.
Joe – thanks for the blogolove, man. How did your paper turn out? You’ve earned yourself a case of Black and Tan
Ken – What do you think of Willimon’s book so far? I put it in the top 5 of all my books.
Eric – thanks for coming by and for your thoughtful response.
My comments are below…
1) Jesus did not seem to embrace the idea. The story of sheep v. goats, depart into outer darkness, depart from me, I never knew you, etc. seem to hold out at least the possibility that such a fate may come to some of us.
The interesting thing about Matt. 25 (the sheep and goats) is that neither party knew Jesus. Both are ignorant of who he is and what it means to be his sheep. I think this is a teaching that has more to say about the surprising nature of God (i.e. – people will be part of my kingdom that you think are goats) rather than a teaching to illustrate an eternity apart from God for some.
The other more strident comments made by Jesus I think have to be seen inside the context of a long tradition of family squabbles. Jesus is speaking to other Jews (not the sinners we would think of today who do not know Jesus or YHWH. And it is perhaps instructive to recall that Jesus said of the “sinner, whore and tax collector” that they will enter the Kingdom ahead of even some of the chosen of God) and the language he uses is peppered with the sort of urgent, in-your-face sort of language that Jews are very used to. I do agree with you, Eric, that this is perhaps a “possibility.” It seems to me that Jesus is saying “Repent, or this could happen to you.” He is not saying, “Repent or you will burn in hell.”
A second possibility is that God will continue to work with me, to woo me into the light, to heal my darkness until I am won, across all eternity if that is what it takes. This seems the only plausible nail to hang the universal hope on, and it may be true. But there is a danger in assuming it, “I know I’ll give in eventually, so I can continue my rebellion as long as I wish” I am leery of adopting a position that is so clearly identified with my own self-interest, that so neatly dovetails with my own wish-fulfillment dreams, esp. in light of my first objection, from the words of Jesus.
Eric, this is an insightful and thought provoking comment. I agree that if those who are willfully rejecting of God’s grace in this lifetime yet are brought into the fold it would be because of God’s relentless pursuit of the lost sheep, the lost coin, the prodigal son. Who are we to say that God’s love cannot reach into eternity? Who are we to say that God cannot descend even into the very pits of hell (whose gates cannot hold him back) and rescue the perishing?
However, even if we allow for that, your insight into the human/individual problem of “well, if I give in eventually I will rebel for now” I think gets at a deeper issue.
For starters, I think the fault of this assumed position (and I dont doubt that some would think this way) lies with us who are pastors and teachers and evangelists and writers. We have reduced salvation to nothing more than a disembodied eternal destiny. Believe in Jesus and go to heaven. Believe in Jesus and get out of hell. Yet this is not why the good news is proclaimed in the NT (or the OT). A person who figures they will live however they want today for tomorrow they will be in heaven regardless is a person who misses the point about what salvation really is and that salvation is about today. Tomorrow will come.
But then there is another side of me that wants to say, So what? Just because God’s universal love for all humanity may cause some to act in such a rebellious way should not negate the fact that this is how God is and has decided to be. If God determines to welcome into eternal rest those who take advantage of God’s eventual grace and forgiveness who are we to say this is unfair? In many ways we sound like the brother of the prodigal son who came home after squandering his father’s money. How did the Father respond? And the brother? Or what of the story Jesus tells of the laborers who all get paid the same wage, even the one who comes in the last hour and does barely anything?
Thoughts?
thanks for being here.
Keith – welcome! Thanks for coming by.
I hope you are the only one that comes through Joe’s blog – the beverage he requests isn’t exactly cheap!
I agree with you that tension is a good and often necessary thing.
Is it possible that your approach emphasizes the truth of His mercy to the detriment of biblical truths regarding repentance and judgment?
Perhaps. Or perhaps I have not yet said enough about repentance and judgment. Do you think I have dismissed them both? Honestly.
My point #5 in the OP is what I think about judgment. I take it quite seriously. But I also think it begins with me. This is something I said on another blog to someone who had a similar concern:
I must also say that the we know the Judge. We know Jesus, who is also the Suffering Servant, the Prince of Peace, the Man of Sorrows – he is the one who gave his life as a ransom for all and while doing so prayed over the ones murdering him “Forgive them.” This is who will be judging us. And by his very nature, when I meet this Jesus, I am compelled to repent (to change my mind and walk in a new direction).
I think you are right though to stress the need to talk about repentance and judgment. I think the slippage away from that (or the fear of bringing it up) is that those words have been used for so long in destructive and unhelpful ways (and I would argue, unbiblical ones as well).
Your thoughts?
peace.
Chad,
I do recommend you get the book. “The Inescapable Love of God”. I cannot do it justice in blog comment. In a nutshell though, Talbott’s argument is based on a couple of things. 1.) God will not give up on us. 2.) No one in their right mind, with unobstructed information would reject God forever. The reason people reject God now is they see “through a glass darkly”. Once they understand the love of God, only a madman would reject Him.
Brian-
Cool. I will read it. That sounds similar to what Will Willimon says in his book Who Will Be Saved? Have you read that? If not, you should check it out. I can’t recommend it enough. I have done a synopsis of the first chapter on my blog here. It is under books and called “The God Who Refuses to be Alone.” When I get time I will go through the entire book in a similar way.
peace
Chad, you said
I agree that this has much to say about my own judgmental tendencies. But it does this by denying my basis for judging. It doesn’t just uphold, but explicitly states that there will be such a judgment, done by himself, with startling results. It would seem that the terrifying possibility of being surprisingly declared a goat rests on the same authority as being surprisingly and delightfully declared to be a sheep. Will anyone be so found? I don’t know, but Jesus without question held it out as possible. I am very reluctant to declare that, based on my own reasoning, God is unable/unwilling to do something that Jesus said was possible. It may be so, but it’s not the smart money bet.
On another point, I think I was unclear. When I said that some may use God’s expected mercy as an excuse for present license, you said
I think we are complete agreement here, and for all the examples you cite. Add the idea that any other possibility transforms faith into a work. Amass enough work credits, and get your ticket punched. Fall a few short, and you are on your own. My own favorite mental picture again relates to Hitler: presume that if, in that bunker in Germany, AH had a sudden revelation, a “Damascus Road” conversion. In response to becoming aware of his own evil, he yielded to the sinful temptation to suicide, as the only just thing for him to do. Now, I don’t think this happened, but I do not personally know of anything that proves that it did not. If God’s grace is not sufficient to rescue him in that moment, then it is not sufficient to rescue me, and I am still in my sin. Your point holds.
I meant something more to the idea that the more often I make a choice, the harder it is to choose otherwise. In effect, I have “become” that choice.
I guess the heart of my caution relates to the question of what exactly do we mean by “Heaven”? I think the popular view is of something of a blessed park- Each Saint living, moving, interacting, doing whatever; much as in this life, only better. God has control over who is granted entrance to this realm, and is free to grant admittance to whom He will, based on good work, on right doctrine, of faith, however He sees fit. Of course, if He announced the criteria, but latter chose on His own authority to extend mercy to some (or all?), to lower the bar and make an exception, well who could blame Him? I don’t think this understanding of Heaven is correct.
I think the promises of God relate very much to His own nature as Triune, as a “plural unity”, When God said ”let us make man in our own image” He meant among other attributes the same as in Jesus’ prayer “…that they all may be one, even as You and I are One” That in some way the church triumphant will also be a plural unity, with the “Bride of Christ” undivided, and yet the individual persons unconfused.
Further, I would speculate that this plural unity will be related, both knowing and fully known, to God in the full sense of all the marital intimacy that is deeper in than just the physical. Out of this, bound only by mutual love and submission, we will live our purpose, which has not yet been revealed.
Of course, much of this is extrapolation from scripture, and must be considered highly speculative .But if it is true at all, then God can no more “admit” the unwilling than I can have a true marriage with an unwilling bride. Can the bridegroom woo forever? Or at sometime, when his intended screams “NO! I TOLD YOU TO LEAVE ME ALONE!” for the one millionth time, does his respect for her autonomy demand that he allow her rejection?
But it is this view of Heaven, and God’s desire for us that guides my thoughts. I do not know if it is possible for God to pursue us across all ages, until all are won, every sheep found, every lost coin recovered. There is much in scripture that gives me hope, but scripture must interpret scripture; I must not interpret the things I like in a way that denies the parts that trouble me. It all means one coherent thing, or it means nothing. I must believe that those who forever reject the Divine Lover, the Dine Love will never be united to it and Him against their will. To “convert” us by fiat would be to withdraw his perhaps greatest gift, personhood, and that from one who He intends to inhabit the kingdom.
Thanks for an interesting discussion of an important topic! I have touched on far too much, but one idea hinges on another. The kingdom is like many other things, a unity of different concepts, many and diverse, yet one.
-R. Eric Sawyer
Eric,
Thank you for your engaging critique. I am enjoying this very much as it presses me to think through all this from different angles. I do not presume to have all the answers but really enjoy fresh dialog with people who aren’t afraid to ask the tough questions.
Perhaps I have been unclear or haven’t said it enough, but I do not deny God’s judgment. Evil will be named and dealt with. Judgment will be rendered. My point is that I think we presume far too much when we assume how that judgment will look or what the punishment will look like. I am not convinced that the punishment is necessarily eternal. I am certain that we should leave the judging to the Judge.
These parables in Matt. 25 make it clear that we all shall be judged, regardless of how good you think you were in this lifetime or what holy book you read and gave mental assent to. We will be judged and those judgments will be those of a righteous, sovereign God who is the same God who is full of surprises, allowing the whore and sinner and tax collector in before the presumed righteous “church folk.” And as always with Jesus’ parables, they are injunctions on us for the here and now – they teach us how to live today. Will Willimon says, “Surprising Jesus was notorious for telling the presumed righteous for welcoming whores into the kingdom of God and telling the presumed righteous that they could go to Gehenna.”
If nothing else, this is a call to humble ourselves and not think salvation as our right or our property but as a gift.
Regarding Hitler, you said:
I agree. And this is why when I speak of judgment I am keen to impress the fact that this begins with me. Knowing my own heart, one who should know better as one who professes Jesus as Lord and aims to love God with all my heart, soul and mind and lead others to do the same, I am continually moved to confession as I contemplate judgment and the salvation of the world. If God can save me, he can save anyone.
On what basis should I be so smug to presume that I deserve to spend eternity with my God while the young woman who has only known rape and abuse and torture in Darfur and dies without ever knowing the name of Jesus on her lips will spend eternity in hell? Simply because I believe in Jesus? I believe in Jesus but I am a lousy disciple more times than not. Thus, my hope and confidence is not in me, it is not in my belief and it is not in the non-belief of the young woman in Darfur. My hope and confidence lies in the One who believed for me. My hope lies in the One who is the Righteous Judge, who died for all the world, and promised to draw all people to himself.
I know what you mean. C.S. Lewis said that judgment for some of us will be God saying to the person that has continually snubbed God’s gracious offers of love and mercy “Thy will be done.” Being left to ourselves would indeed be “hell.”
I need to pause here for now and get back to sermon prep. I will get back to you on the rest asap.
Till then, peace.
[...] to write about it myself later, but in the meantime I’d like to point you to a post over at Dancing on Saturday. The entire post is wonderful, the comments are especially lively, and there is one snippet of a [...]
Chad,
I have not read “Who will be saved?” I’ll add it to my list on Amazon.
[...] http://chadholtz.wordpress.com/2008/12/10/the-universal-good-news/ [...]
A new friend of mine in the blogosphere has written a wonderful review of Thomas Talbott’s The Inescapable Love of God. This is a book I look forward to reading. The review is well written and informative.
This is a fascinating discussion and exciting, really, because it is about what is shaping tomorrow’s Christians and how they will relate to the global community of peaples and religions. Christian exclusivity is an obsolete concept to me. After studying religion for many years, I “see” the spirit of Christ at work, albeit anonymously, almost everywhere.
As to the persistant argument about the obstinate soul who refuses God’s grace, I say that perhaps God will make him or her an offer he/she CAN’T refuse.
Part of my hope in universal salvation lies in two passages (and I use the translation of the Liturgy of the Hours). Ephesians 1:9-10 says,
God has given us the wisdom
to understand fully the mystery,
the plan he was pleased
to decree in Christ.
A plan to be carried out
in Christ, in the fullness of time,
to bring ALL things into UNITY in him,
in the heavens and on the earth.
Similarly, Colossians 1:19-20 says,
It pleased God to make absolute fullness reside in him
and, by means of him, to reconcile EVERYTHING in his person,
both on earth and in the heavens,
making peace through the blood of his cross.
This topic is also about whether the ultimate destiny of the universe becomes a duality between eternal heaven and hell or a unity in God in Christ. I place my hope in God to work out the best of all options.
Granted the Bible is not unambiguous in this matter. For a treatment of that topic, please see the tab entitled, “On the Nature of Scripture” on my blog. I can’t put it here because it is about 5,000 words.
Lastly, I think we must come to the understanding that Christ is a Cosmic Christ who was incarnated as a man named Jesus who lived in first century Jewish Palestine. As such, Jesus taught in terms of the beliefs and customs that existed at that time. But the Cosmic Christ is beyond history, culture,, time, and yes even religion. The symbols of religion are used for the benefit of man’s limited understanding. God, however, is infinite and he is not locked into any particular religion or culture.
Thanks and God bless.
Inter-
Thanks for stopping by! What shapes your understanding of the Cosmic Christ? That is an interesting comment and one I have not fully explored or considered.
Have you always believed in GOd’s universal love and salvation or was this an understanding that came about over time?
grace and peace,
Chad
[...] The Universal Good News [...]
[...] to write about it myself later, but in the meantime I'd like to point you to a post over at Dancing on Saturday. The entire post is wonderful, the comments are especially lively, and there is one snippet of a [...]